Ep74 - Rethink: Financial Advice with Soul — A South African Perspective – Featuring Lelané Bezuidenhout

Lelané Bezuidenhout, CFP® and CEO of the Financial Planning Institute of Southern Africa, gives Adam Holt and Derek Notman a look at how financial advice is evolving outside the U.S. She argues that South African advisors are, in some ways, leapfrogging American norms by building lifelong, purpose-driven partnerships with clients instead of pushing products. The conversation touches on the concept of Ubuntu, her own path from artist to industry leader, and what global perspectives on fiduciary duty can teach U.S. advisors.

• Moving from product-centric advice to purpose-driven partnership
• The concept of Ubuntu applied to client relationships
• How South African financial advice compares to the U.S. model
• Lelané's path from artist to industry CEO
• Global perspectives on fiduciary responsibility

Full timestamped transcript.

[00:00:30] Adam Holt Tank: Derek. Is South Africa more evolved in financial advice delivery?

[00:00:36] Derek Notman Tank: Great question. Um, I might be a little biased 'cause of my roots in South Africa. However, I, I think they've got something, I don't know if you wanna call it a leading edge or an idea, but there's something going on there.

I think they're actually more forward thinking or open to change and evolution for financial advice than maybe we are in the states.

[00:01:04] Adam Holt Tank: Most of us in the states barely know what an advisor down the street is doing, let alone what someone in another country is doing.

And in our journeys, literally around the world now, Derek, you and me, we're learning a lot about what other people are doing.

[00:01:22] Derek Notman Tank: So what do you do to help grow, whether it's a company or anything really, is it, it helps to take the blinders off and look outside and , what's working in other places?

Mm-hmm. Other regions, other sectors and so forth. And so, I mean, south Africa's kind of on the other side of the planet, right? And so they are doing things differently and it is giving us a unique perspective onto what's working down there and what are they thinking about and what are they doing. And when you're talking about advice, the CFP mark obviously comes up.

Mm-hmm. This is something that, you know, it's just, it's a world recognized credential at this point. And so who better than to bring someone on who actually leads all CFPs in South Africa?

We had the opportunity to actually speak with Lelané Bezuidenhout. She is the CEO of the Financial Planning Institute of South Africa or Southern Africa. In other words, they are the ones that award and maintain the CFP designation for all of South Africa. And so she's got one heck of a perspective when it comes to advice delivery and what's going on

[00:02:34] Adam Holt Tank: there's no question. And I think what's really interesting about her, and she, she had this opportunity to share this, is that she started out as an artist and found her way into this space. So again, another example of somebody who didn't come from a passion for finance and then wound up, , finding her way, , as long as I think both of you and I have been in this business.

So it's interesting to see how she's taken this very unique role and influence. Uh, and gosh, she talked about a lot of things. I think it'd be really interesting for y'all to hear, uh, and how this is applicable. So listen intently how you can actually apply some of this in your own practice.

[00:03:13] Derek Notman Tank: Yeah, I, I think so.

. Maybe time to get off the US pedestal for a moment and see like, oh, maybe we don't have this as figured out as we thought we did.

[00:03:22] Adam Holt Tank: awesome. You'll notice that we're in a different space. This is one of the first times Derek and I did an interview together besides being recently Nitrogen's, fearless. But we did this at the new Asset Map warehouse. So we hope you enjoy this conversation with Lilanne.

[00:03:34] Derek Notman Tank: So, Lilanne, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. Excited to learn more about your perspective and. To kick things off, will you please just give us a better understanding of what your unique, , perspective of the financial advice market is?

[00:03:48] Lillane: Sure. Thanks Derek. That is a loaded question. So. I thought about this long and hard and for me, the first, the first thing that comes to mind is that the financial advice market itself is misunderstood, not only by consumers, but definitely by key participants in the broader financial ecosystem like your employers, uh, your regulators, definitely your regulators, financial institution, and some of the advisors themselves.

And, and why do I say this? I say this because for years the story around financial advice has been dominated by product sales. So financial institution build distribution models is really around selling products and not delivering holistic financial advice. But then it actually goes further. Adam and Derek, if we look at the regulators, the regulators on the other hand, and, and I've got my fair share of dealing with regulators, um.

But as I've, as I've mentioned at some point in time, I've worked at an Ombudsman's office as well. Now, if we look at the regulators, on the other hand, they mostly focus on controlling product, product related risks, rather than defining and promoting what true professional financial advice should actually look like.

And then as a result. It's no wonder that the public still largely associates, financial advisors with product pushes. Yeah. Um, rather than trusted professionals who help them plan their financial lives and purpose. And then maybe in closing, my, my personal perspective, you've asked for my personal one on the financial advice market is that we still have a long way to go to ensure that we understand our clients deeply.

And with that, I mean their values. They're fears, their goals, but also they family dynamics, which is why I really love the concept you have with assets map Adam. Um, and then creating strategies in partnership. This is very important with the client to help them n navigate through every stage in life.

So that's in a nutshell my view of the financial advice market. We've got a long way to go.

[00:05:46] Adam Holt Tank: That's really interesting to hear because, you know, we tend to stay so much in this idealistic perspective of what the industry is relative to what it, uh, what it could be. And I think, uh, I think there's some really interesting points and we're so impressed with what you've been able to achieve in the South African marketplace.

Yeah. In many places, in many ways. Has just has jumped over, uh, the US marketplace with respect to the awareness of financial guidance. Not necessarily products, but it's still prolific. That's where people are making their money. So what do you think absolutely is missing opportunity, Lelane, that advisors are not addressing?

What, what is that opportunity?

[00:06:24] Lillane: Well, , with the flip side, there's always opportunity, but then there's also. What we don't see, there's opportunity, but then also the risk comes with it. The real opportunity for me is to reframe. We have to reframe professional financial advice as a lifelong service that help people to navigate the entire financial journey from the first paycheck.

I'm sure you can remember your first paycheck. In fact, I, I threw my out the other day and I found my very first paycheck and. Yeah, it's, we've come a long way. Uh, so did inflation by the way, but from your first paycheck, uh, to your retirement strategy and also then that generational financial planning that comes in.

So, so that's where the opportunity lies, is we have to reframe what, what that looks like. And why do I say this? Uh, it's because we, we really require advisors to promote their professional financial advice, not the product that they're sailing, and to become more visible and accessible and transparent.

This is very important to me, transparent in everything that they do and when they communicate their own personal value. But if I then may also, Adam and Derek mention on the other side, if you look at the challenges, there's quite a few challenges that we do not see coming our way. Um, and that is for me, that if advisors and, and I recall.

We, we had a forum discussion earlier this week with both of you online, and I recall you both actually also mentioned it, that if advisors don't redefine and reposition themselves as lifelong financial influences on their clients' lives, I. Someone else will.

[00:08:00] Adam Holt Tank: Yeah.

[00:08:00] Lillane: And who's that? Yeah. Who's that? Someone else that I talk about.

I talk about finfluencers, I talk about AI platforms. Uh, I talk about institutions that's not even financially, uh, uh, financial providers, but it's more your education type of wealth advisors. So yeah, if, if you don't influence your client's life, somebody else will. So, so that's maybe in a nutshell, what I see on the horizon.

I love that.

[00:08:23] Derek Notman Tank: So, so along those lines then, Lelane, obviously a lot of advisors listen to this podcast and you know, we're hoping to get more in South Africa, obviously with, with your participation, what would be like a top one or two action steps you would say to advisors listening right now, the next thing that they should think about trying to do?

[00:08:45] Lillane: So, so I can give you one or two, but there's, there's a high level four that I'll, I'll really just, just high level summarize first. Mm-hmm. Number one, stop selling products. Um, you have to start selling your own personal value. You have to start selling professional financial advice, and you have to position yourself as the professional financial partner in your client's life, and not just somebody who knocks on the door, say, Hey.

Look here. I've got a whole bouquet of new financial products for you today. Pick one. That's the first one, and then the second one for me is educate your clients and the community. You have to clearly explain what financial advice is, actual about and why it matters. That's one of the first discussions that you need to have with your clients and not, Hey, I see you, you.

Need another retirement annuity. It's just clearly explaining what it is, and then your own visibility. You have to start building a digital presence, and that links up with what I've said earlier on is if you're not gonna build that digital presence and people can't find you, they will find somebody else that can influence them.

And then collaborate. Don't compete. You have, we all, all of us, like the three of us are doing now. We have to work together as a profession to actually raise the public's awareness and shift the perceptions, the bad perceptions that we have about financial advice. That's the four high level ones I can give you Adam, Derek.

I love

[00:10:04] Derek Notman Tank: it. I love it. That is, that resonates so much and I love that you, you frame it as , let's help each other. There's enough business for all of us, right? Let's help each other. Lift up the profession.

[00:10:13] Lillane: Absolutely in South Africa. Derek and Adam, I've not sure if you've heard it.

We talk about ubuntu and baqapewlle , and that means, uh, you are because we are. So it's two principles that we live by ubuntu and baqapewlle very important principles in our lives.

[00:10:31] Adam Holt Tank: Very cool. Gosh, I think you've, you've brought up so much that I'm already ready to start debating, but I, I, I think, uh, we wanna give you the platform to, to share with us in our community , what is something that needs to be heard that hasn't been heard that you haven't shared with us already,

[00:10:48] Lillane: Sure, Adam?

There, there's a lot of confusion and I found that not just in South Africa, , because we work on a global community in terms of the Financial Planning Standards Board and a few affiliates that come together, and I must say we really work quite well together as the various affiliates of the Financial Planning Standards Board in terms of.

Best practice sharing , and we need to debate and talk more about remuneration models, you know, what does that look like? The fees, the transparency, and clients don't understand , what they're paying for, let's be honest. , and often advisors. , they don't know how to clearly articulate the values themselves.

So if you, as an advisor cannot confidently explain your value to the client beyond normal product performance, why should a client pay you? And I find that advisors battle to actually articulate that. Why should a client , pay me? , but there's a lot of debate around remuneration models at this point in time.

I think we need to bring it to the forefront. , in South Africa specifically, we have what we call the RDR proposals, which is the retail distribution, , review. And we had 55 proposals in November, 2014 already. And out of that 55, we had a lot of changes that came into regulation already. In South Africa, we are moving from a rules based type of legislative environment to a principle based slash , conduct based.

Um, and, and one of the proposals that was not really batted down yet is this. Remuneration model debate that we always have. Is it assets under management? Is it commission, is it fees or is it all three? And how, how does it work? So I think we need to bring that debate to the forefront if we really want to classify ourselves as a profession.

[00:12:38] Derek Notman Tank: What a great, insightful conversation from the other side of the planet.

[00:12:44] Adam Holt Tank: For sure. For sure. Just an elevated thoughtfulness, certainly from Lelane. Uh, I think she really has the opportunity to, to think about the profession. 'cause she sees it in a different light than most advisors.

[00:12:57] Derek Notman Tank: She really does, and she left us a lot of really good nuggets.

I, I mean, clearly she's passionate about this. She's got the great perspective and it's just so cool that we're able to, not only chat with her about it, but heck, we're even gonna be at their conference later this year, which is gonna be pretty exciting. That is

[00:13:15] Adam Holt Tank: true. We're gonna, we're gonna take the trip, we're gonna fly over to South Africa and, and speak with them and meet with our friends.

Uh, and there, that's gonna be a really great experience. Certainly open our eyes about what else is happening in the States. We tend to get a little myopic, I think, talking about the same thing, same media outlets and so forth about who's doing what. But it's very true. I I mentioned it there before. There is definitely an evolved awareness of delivery, of advice over delivery of product.

Even though a lot of the superstructure in South Africa still has a great amount of product distribution as its monetization strategy.

[00:13:48] Derek Notman Tank: It does, but it feels like it's shifting faster there than in the States, honestly. You know, , we have our inroads, both of our companies do in South Africa.

We even talked about this with Kobus and with Bekitemba in in our previous episodes. But there's something going on in South Africa where it feels like there's a little bit more willingness to, to speed up the process of change. Mm-hmm. Versus here in the States, and I don't quite know why.

Yeah, but it's refreshing, I'll tell you that. It's pretty cool.

[00:14:18] Adam Holt Tank: Yeah. And look, we could speculate all of it on, on the regulation. I thought there was some really interesting things because as some of you know or now know that the FBI in South Africa owning the CFP credentials there, uh, has a requirement to be both a compliance as well as, uh, an ethical standard, uh, as well as lead the charge on what does it mean to be a CFP?

What does it mean to be an advisor? And we have seen this in most of the countries. We see this in Australia and New Zealand as well, a higher standard with respect to fiduciary responsibility that I think, uh, America's been grappling with for years, not knowing what it's gonna do to our industry. What did you think about, , the size of South Africa as a CFP, though?

That was interesting too.

[00:15:00] Derek Notman Tank: I thought the size of the CFP mark in South Africa is really exciting. So they, I think she said they're number six in the world for CFP growth. Now granted, they don't have nearly as many CFPs as the USA, but you could call the states an outlier.

Right. We're an anomaly where they're the six in the world. I mean, that, that's pretty awesome. And it's growing fast and they've only had access to the CFP market for what, just over 20 years there.

[00:15:28] Adam Holt Tank: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:29] Derek Notman Tank: Where in the states We've had it for, what, 40 plus years? Something like that. I

[00:15:34] Adam Holt Tank: don't even know.

[00:15:34] Derek Notman Tank: And it goes to some of the other points she's talking about, about let's get away from product and let's focus on advice and let's focus on getting the value out to the community and educating. , yeah, I, I'm just really encouraged by it, to be honest. It's really, really cool.

[00:15:47] Adam Holt Tank: What was, it was interesting when she was talking about the regulation focus on product risks, and, and I couldn't help but think, where else do we see that?

And you know what, you know what I thought of Derek, I thought of our healthcare environment, right? When we, we tend to think of medicine and doctors as being advocates for, uh, obviously wellness and fitness and all this other stuff. But the reality is, is that the regulation seems to be more around the treatment.

It's the pharmaceutical side, it's the surgical side. It's the, it's the mistreatment and the malpractice that that tends to drive how we deliver medical guidance just the same. And I, I wonder whether, I wonder whether we can ever really get away from the fact that the dominant way that advisors make money.

And the reason by the way that private equity companies are flying into buying financial advisory practices is because on the backend, the monetization argument is you can manage the assets and the solutions. So I don't know if we're gonna really get away from the fact that people make a lot more money when they can manage a distribution of solution.

[00:16:58] Derek Notman Tank: Yeah. I healthcare's a good example, although I, I think it's maybe shifting a little bit, but at the end of the day, I mean, she, me, she mentioned this too. Where's the money going? Where's the money flowing? And that's still the driving factor when she talks about remuneration or, fees and compensation at the end of the day, like as a doctor, if I'm getting paid X dollars to prescribe prescription X over this other pill

mm-hmm.

[00:17:25] Derek Notman Tank: Right. Just saying. I mean, that's, that's, that's what's out there. And it's, and it's, it's about treating symptoms instead of treating root causes. And this is kind of fun. I'm just realizing this professional financial advice goes to root cause. Yeah. And helps you deal with it. Products deal with symptoms.

[00:17:44] Adam Holt Tank: Yeah.

[00:17:45] Derek Notman Tank: No, absolutely. Right. Absolutely. And that's the problem. You're, we're in an industry that's treating symptoms instead of cause Well, that's because we get paid on the symptom solution and we need to flip that pay on, on the, on the, on the root. I mean, but that's, that's a lot easier said than done, let's face it.

Yeah, no, you're right.

[00:18:02] Adam Holt Tank: Look, I, I think we all know that. Worldwide, fundamentally, if I, if I want financial guidance, I'm, I mean, look, it's the same thing as you, you know, you go to a new country, you go to some place where you don't know any place. You hire a tour guide. And then the tour guide. I don't takes you around and Well, I, I do this or go with a group.

I mean, I'm going, I'm, I'm blowing up your theory. Right, right, right in front of you. Well, okay. So sorry. Most other humans, you know, go someplace new. Ideally, they want a trusted tour guide. I don't know. I guess I'm, I'm rare in this argument. You just go. You just move your family there. I think that's, I'm very jealous of you of course.

Scared of that. But I, I, the reason I mention is because, you know, typ typically when I've done this right and hired a tour guide or gone on a trip, and it's great. They thought it all out. They, they say, look over here now look right now look left, now look right. And you see what they want you to see.

And then , you look back and you find out that they took you to the, the shop that sells trinkets that they get a kickback on, and they took you to the restaurant that they, they got a, that's

[00:18:58] Derek Notman Tank: a great analogy. It, it slowed through too. And then you didn't know

[00:19:01] Adam Holt Tank: that, but you saw that experience, you saw that country and you're like, yeah.

you just don't know the underlying compensation that's happening. That's motivating the experience you're actually getting. It's not transparent. Yeah. And so I, I guess I wonder whether, what we really need as consumers is we need guidance and advocacy around on paycheck. She said it on benefit selection, but, but advisors don't get paid for that.

And so you, it's not surprising that the tour, that one experiences the financial advice guide. Is gonna be predicated on how the guide is paid and what they're compensated to do. And if the incentive is for them to just, Hey, I'm just gonna focus on the pain of asset management. Who cares about all that other stuff?

I don't know. It's a misnomer, certainly, and I don't know how to fix it. Whoever it does,

[00:19:47] Derek Notman Tank: they're gonna make a lot of money. Are they though? That's the thing.

[00:19:50] Adam Holt Tank: I don't know.

[00:19:51] Derek Notman Tank: I, I don't know if, if you can fix it in a way where the money still flows and the product distributors are still getting paid, then someone's gonna do really, really well.

But that's an if, right? I don't know if you can fix it. Like, I like that she's talking about being transparent. , okay, your tour operator thing, I. At least tell me , you're gonna take me to the trinket shop where you're getting a cut. At least that way I know, and I'm informed, and at the end of the day, do I really care?

Maybe, maybe not. I'll go buy your trinkets, right?

[00:20:22] Adam Holt Tank: Yeah, yeah,

[00:20:22] Derek Notman Tank: yeah. But tell, but tell me that, so I know that the widget that I just bought. Yeah. That isn't even made in the country I'm in.

[00:20:34] Adam Holt Tank: Look at this cultural icon made, made somewhere else, right? Stamped. Listen, we're all suckers in the moment. I, , it's a real good question because, you know, we've had this conversation with plenty of guests on our, on our podcast here about, you know, how does fee-based financial planning work?

You know, you and I both recovering planners, we still all also have figured out ways to build successful practices by asset management and of course placement of protection products. We know that business, we, we've benefited from , that system and it's provided us, I think, and it creates a marginal, return on investment.

That's really appealing and I don't. I don't know. I mean, look, you see this argument Derek, all the time for pharmaceutical companies. Why does it have to be $2,000 for a dose of the X, y, Z drug? Well, because it's, , 10 years of research and a billion dollars to actually get here. I can't argue that, but I, we wouldn't have the drug if you didn't make that investment.

I appreciate you need a return in the financial advice space. It's gonna be really hard, I think, to get the distribution companies who have figured out a way to monetize these assets, to give up that margin. Uh, 'cause they're like, well, I invested, I made it. Now it's here. You want me to give up my margin?

[00:21:45] Derek Notman Tank: You know, let's, I'm gonna try a different angle on this huge thing. Okay. Maybe it's not up to the product distributors at all. Maybe they're not the bad guys. Maybe it's the advisors that are the problem. Okay. Why? Okay. So you and I both built successful practices with a, a planning core focus.

Mm-hmm.

[00:22:07] Derek Notman Tank: We sold a ton of product too, didn't we?

We did, yeah. Okay. And the, the consumers had no problem buying that product. No. But they did it through a planning process. Yeah. So planning takes a long time. Yeah. Planning is, a lot of work is a lot faster for me just to sell a term policy or an annuity and maybe play on your fears as a consumer and just get the business done and then go on to the next one and be much more transactional.

So maybe the shift really needs to be, Hey, advisors, stop being a McDonald's. Drive through here. Like start focusing on the long game instead of the short game. And if you do now you're giving your clients what they want. You're being transparent and you'll sell probably actually more products.

Honestly, you'll make more money. Right. But it's, there's a delayed gratification now.

[00:23:03] Adam Holt Tank: You're totally right. And look, the CFP board knew this in 2016. I, there was an A ITE survey that came out back then. I remember it really well. It said that if you had a CFP on staff as a financial, services person, you made 48 50% more revenue.

, you're generating more revenue if you lead with planning for sure. 'cause you just solve more problems. You, you uncover more needs, you grab more wallet share, your lifetime value expands because the client's gonna stay with a long time. This is why every single financial services company, bank Credit Union is getting into financial advice as a product or as a service because they know they're gonna just get more of the same money that we just talked about is motivating.

Right? They're gonna go to more trinket stores. They're like, I can get a share on this

[00:23:45] Derek Notman Tank: and, you know what I'm saying? But they're doing it because of a process that's transparent and thoughtful. And that's what what the consumer wants. Even Michael Kitces has said like, the money's gotta land somewhere, but help me land the money at the right trinket shop that I'm happy with.

Yeah.

The

[00:24:00] Adam Holt Tank: right drink shop, the right restaurant. I monetize the bathrooms, I monetize everything. Yeah. Right.

[00:24:06] Derek Notman Tank: Seriously. Yeah. You, well, and well, there's a lot of places that you actually have to pay to go in the bathroom, I guess you're right. But it's a good process. So I, I think that's where we're coming at.

So maybe it's not product distributors at all. Like they're the good guys in this situation. Maybe it's advisors who I'll say it are too darn lazy to do planning. Mm-hmm.

[00:24:27] Adam Holt Tank: I guess it, that's a, that's an interesting corollary because I'm thinking about it in my medical analogy. So if, if the pharmaceutical companies, the product .

The surgical, , outlets, right? They're, even though they're making a lot of money, right, they're not the ones that are gonna change this paradigm. It's gotta be the doctors, the doctors, doctors to start asking questions that have nothing to do with, let's say, treatment. And or, , surgery or meds, right? Is the doctor asking about lifestyle?

And I think some doctors are really asking about, I mean, one of the things that kind of concerns me is we do know that there's financial guidance and behavior that an advisor can help with, for which you don't get paid. Like what to do with your paycheck and Right. And maybe, uh, maybe how to different spending or budget habits that

you can't monetize that unless you're charging a fee and, and it's not gonna be the same kind of marginal rate you're making from asset management for sure. No, but it's the good stuff you need to do to help them have overall wellbeing. How do we promote that? How do we, how do we make it compelling enough for advisors to say, I'm actually gonna be holistic as opposed to myopic and pretend to be holistic.

The client doesn't know any different. That's what I'm saying. The tour guide takes you on a trip. You're like, I went to Spain. I saw Spain. No, you saw the 2% of Spain that the guy wanted you to see because he's figured out how to monetize it and you don't know what you're doing. Like you're just there and you may

[00:25:44] Derek Notman Tank: or may not find out at some point.

Right. And if you do, you're gonna be pissed. And then now you don't want to ever go back to that country 'cause like, oh, I don't, isn't that true? People get jaded just like that. Well, you, it's so jaded. I don't But can you force all advisors to be planners? No.

[00:26:01] Adam Holt Tank: No. This would, this, this is the problem.

I think that's why there was, there's only two influencers here, right? Either the, the people paying for it, the, the digital distributors have to change it. Or the regulators have to change it. And you're not gonna like it, by the way. Yeah, right. The only, the only other way to get fundamental change is that everybody in the middle's gotta say no.

We fundamentally idealistically from a values standpoint, recognize that this is where we want to take the country. And that takes forever. Like, that takes, that's a long, long process, social change.

[00:26:32] Derek Notman Tank: So what could be interesting is maybe the, product distributors could, and this would make them more competitive against each other mm-hmm.

Is like whatever they pay on comp for an annuity, a life policy, whatever.

[00:26:45] Adam Holt Tank: Mm-hmm. It

[00:26:45] Derek Notman Tank: has to be the same. It's levelized comp across all companies. And so now I'm focused on how can I increase my margin by reducing my expenses and getting more advisors to sell us, because we are, we, we fit into the advice model better.

We help people do X, Y, and Z. It's not, Hey, I'm gonna pay you twice as much a commission to sell our annuity over the next one.

[00:27:10] Adam Holt Tank: Wow. Amazing. You mean promote service and ongoing management? What a novel thought. And actually you would build value. I mean, can you imagine actually, if every single financial services product was entirely levelized compensation,

[00:27:25] Derek Notman Tank: it'd be pretty cool.

But that's only gonna happen from like a, like a regulatory, like federal ruling. There's no way. Yeah. And, and, and they're all in such cahoots with the, you know, the powers that be, that that'll never happen. But I think that that would be a massive positive game changer.

[00:27:45] Adam Holt Tank: We talked about it in the interview we just did with Tony Steuer, if you remember.

That just came out, it's on YouTube. I saw it the other night. Uh, talking about levelized comp in the insurance, , space, which is such a dominant factor. We, but we all know that you, if, if you came into this business and weren't provided a salary. You would be s skunked, right? You, you can't make two, but you can

[00:28:06] Derek Notman Tank: do it.

You could. Would it be easy? No, but nothing, nothing worth doing is gonna be easy. It's

[00:28:12] Adam Holt Tank: true.

[00:28:13] Derek Notman Tank: Anyway, I love that tangent. What else did we, what else did she say that we want to talk about? I don't

[00:28:18] Adam Holt Tank: know. , I thought that what was really interesting, she threw this mic drop in there.

I don't know if you heard it. And I, and it stuck with me, this idea of being a lifelong influencer and it's hard to build that level of credibility. I've been lucky enough, I think you two, to have, I still have 10 households that I talk to. They have my cell phone, they call me. They expect me to be at the annual review.

And some of them have been with me for 20 years as an advisor. That's cool. Uh, from the early days when I knew virtually nothing, they're still with me. And it's amazing. It's a testament to relationship capital. You guys know it well. Uh, people that trust you and, and won't make a decision without you in the room, but being a lifelong influencer is a really interesting thing.

Do you remember the survey we just reviewed from the World Economic Forum? We actually did a presentation of it and, and it talked about that 60% of boomers look to an advisor as their biggest influence. But millennials, 60% of millennials said that social media was their influencers on financial decisions.

[00:29:21] Derek Notman Tank: It's wild. So where, who are they getting that influence from? Right? That's, I think that's what Alani is saying, like you need to reframe that so you can be that influencer. I think she even said, if you aren't, they're gonna go get it from somebody else who will.

[00:29:32] Adam Holt Tank: Absolutely. And frankly, there's so much capability out there with the doom scrolling.

You can basically get stuck in if the algorithms on social figure out that you're looking for financial guidance, it'll be, oh, forget it. More than you know what to do with

[00:29:44] Derek Notman Tank: Yeah.

[00:29:45] Adam Holt Tank: Even conflicting opinions. And by the way, ability to buy it now if you're so motivated. I, I think it's really hard to differentiate today between what is a marketing pitch and what is a social benefit pitch, and uh, I think they all look the same today.

In fact, we're, we're actually creating marketing these days that is influencing people to take the action I want them to take. Yeah, right. I'm taking them to my trinket store, but I'm telling them this is the best store in the city. Let's go there. Got it in. But I also got an affiliate code with the guy.

Yeah, right. Here's my affiliate code. Please use this. That's right. Make sure you click on this link, not that link when we go to the store. Oh my gosh. It's true. It's happening everywhere, man.

[00:30:31] Derek Notman Tank: Well, it is. Yeah. And we'll get to our bits of advice, but it's definitely tied into how are you influencing your clients, and ultimately, like how does that change the perception, right?

Between advisors and advice and product and all of that kind of stuff. So I guess, you know, to kind of put a pin on some of this, if I'm listening and I'm an advisor, regardless of my location, what are some things that she said that I should probably do today?

[00:30:54] Adam Holt Tank: I think a lot of it has to do with positioning.

Again, I, I think we have to remind ourselves that our clients don't know actually what we do. Until we actually tell them. I think they have a lot of trust and so I think that they see the products that we placed as being, getting statements of it and constant reminders. I think it's an opportunity for us to double down on how we sell our value, and tell people what we're doing and what we've done for them.

That has nothing to do with the products. We have to remind people we can't assume that they know, so that they can choose to value the advice, not just the solution.

[00:31:29] Derek Notman Tank: Yeah. Yeah, that, that's exactly it. Sell your value through education. You almost combine those two. What are you doing? Tie it back.

I don't care that this product has this rider. How does this thing help me do XI told you I want to send my kid to college. How does this product help me do that?

[00:31:49] Adam Holt Tank: Yeah. Yeah. And is it working? Educate. I think that's, and is it working great? Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. I think a lot of clients don't really know.

They might, we made a decision to do, put something in place, but who's challenging that decision? Are we willing and humble enough to say, listen, I, I told you to do this. I recommended it based on our analysis three years ago. It's not working. I'm making a different recommendation. I need to cut it.

And I, I was wrong. It's okay. I, I think that, that, uh. We'll call it. That's huge. Empathy and awareness I think is, is not happening enough. 'cause we always wanna look like we're brilliant in front of, of our clients, so we never make any mistakes. 'cause we're fearful that we might lose the relationship or the business.

And I think we need to do that more often and call ourselves out. That, that is a different level of, I think, confidence. That if clients would be looking for, I don't think we do it enough.

[00:32:38] Derek Notman Tank: no. Like poke holes, holes in this thing. Why won't this thing work? Is it working the way we thought it would, blah, blah, blah.

If not, like, how do we fix it? And mm-hmm. I'll tell you like being a captive advisor for a while and now being fully independent, I think there's more freedom to have that conversation as an independent advisor. Interesting. It's just my gut reaction.

[00:32:59] Adam Holt Tank: Um,

[00:33:00] Derek Notman Tank: well

[00:33:00] Adam Holt Tank: why do you say that? Why do you say that?

Because I act like a rebel in my own captive.

[00:33:04] Derek Notman Tank: Yeah. I, I think if I am, if I'm captive, if I'm only selling one company's products

[00:33:09] Adam Holt Tank: mm-hmm.

[00:33:10] Derek Notman Tank: I, there's, there's like this constant need to justify why I am selling those products versus looking out at the greater market. Mm-hmm. Like, Hey, I'm only gonna provide Xanax.

Don't care if there's anything else out there. That's all you're gonna get. Yeah. But, hey, I heard about this new thing in Europe they're doing and it's so much better for you. Well, no, I can't sell that. So we're not, it's bad. It's just, don't, don't even think about it, you know? Yeah. And, and I think being independent, you, you don't care so much.

'cause I mean, let's face it, if you're a captive, you're comp is tied to production.

[00:33:43] Adam Holt Tank: Yeah. That's true. That's true. But I think that is the, the rub of everything. We all make a choice as an advisor to affiliate if it's such with a captive or with a carrier or with something. Because we believe fundamentally that that is.

The best in general choice for the client. We have to believe that we, we do, otherwise we're literally lying to ourselves. So we do. But in a sense, promoting one or two product lines, uh, I think you have to believe it.

[00:34:11] Derek Notman Tank: You have to believe it. But what happens three years in, you're like, paint man. This, this thing isn't working.

And you're having that conversation with yourself or your staff, but are you gonna have that conversation with the client because you don't have a better alternative because you're captive?

[00:34:24] Adam Holt Tank: I think. But again, this is a, this is a choice. that's why societal change is the hardest thing to get right.

So we individually have to decide where our moral fiber lands and if we are honest with ourselves and willing to be vulnerable, I guess, with our clients, that's why they're investing in their relationship currency. I think they're believing that we're on the, their team. If, if we learned that basically the decision we made no longer serves them, and I can be honest about that.

I'm like, and I'm gonna make a change as a result. Like what I believed back then is not what I believe today. We have to have that sell side strategy in anything we do finance wise. 'cause if we just stick with things that we already know is wrong, big surprise what the outcome's gonna be. Yeah. Right. And I, I think that's, maybe that's the awareness and and alignment that we need to hope that our community actually has for their clients, which is, I'm gonna see something, I'm gonna say something, even if it's me who told you to do it.

I, I gotta have the guts, uh, and the fortitude to basically fix it.

[00:35:24] Derek Notman Tank: And, you know, I, we can't force advisors to be that way, but I think what's starting to happen in that report, the World Economic Report you talked about is, is saying this, consumers are becoming more and more self-aware and mm-hmm. If they feel something is off, their gut is probably gonna pick up on it.

And if they are like, man, I, this thing doesn't feel right. And I kind of asked Adam about it, but he kind of glossed over and just said, the company's amazing and we'll be okay. Yeah. Like, eh. Eh, now I'm thinking maybe I'm gonna go look and like, oh wow, I found this influencer. I've been found this influencer on Instagram for six months.

Yeah. They like what they have to say. I'm gonna ask them about my problem. Oh, wow. There's a better solution out there. Like this is the, the, the thing that happens, right? And it can happen pretty

[00:36:07] Adam Holt Tank: fast. Oh, totally. Derek. There is a, uh, a negative review on every single thing on the planet. If you're looking for a reason why to undo something, you'll find it or not take action.

You can find it. It's either a troll or it's basically a legit negative that somebody had. And that can be, I I, you've seen things like, I, I I'm really curious about whether this advisor's great. There's one negative review out of 400 positives. Like, yeah, maybe this is not the right fit. So same thing as with a restaurant or a product on Amazon, right?

We, we will find ways to not make decisions or to undo it

[00:36:41] Derek Notman Tank: is so true.

[00:36:42] Adam Holt Tank: There's no excuse today. That isn't justified and I've got a reason for it. But , I think the same time, one of the bigger challenges that we've had in financial services and, and Lelane basically pointed this out, is you got so much choice today.

There's, there's almost overwhelming choice that it's paralyzing. And I think the key for us is to focus on education, right? And, and that is to show that we're not only aware of their choices, but we're gonna educate them how to make a better decision when we're not in the room. Uh, and I think those are the areas where we can also double down, for our community.

[00:37:16] Derek Notman Tank: Well, and that's how she's like, collaborate to lift up the profession and build a digital presence. As part of that, you can collaborate with others to do that and, and help start to influence your clients as a lifelong influence. So there's ways that they can do that. And I, and I love her. Her last kinda saying was Umuntu and Bel.

I think if I'm saying that correctly, a bel, sorry if I mispronounced that, but I am because we are, and I love that, you know, it, it's a, it's a strong community statement.

And I think we can learn a lot about that. And I guess it depends , are you thinking about just yourself or are you thinking about others?

I dunno.

[00:37:53] Adam Holt Tank: Okay. I think that the, the commentary on that phrase, what do you think though, that means if a society actually believes that, do you need regulator? Do you need a distributor to motivate you to take action?

If you believe I am because we are

[00:38:12] Derek Notman Tank: in a perfect world, no, the regulators would not be necessary, but we don't

[00:38:17] Adam Holt Tank: live in one of those. Didn't we start to ask this question, what's happening that's different in, in South Africa than let's say the rest of the world with respect to this? Maybe it's this thing right here you have, yes.

Is it possible they have a countrywide standard underlying care for each other that is motivating them to take proactive action as an advocate, as opposed to having to be drug there with a regulatory action?

[00:38:45] Derek Notman Tank: I suspect you're onto something that's interesting because that is in stark contrast to all the stuff you see in the media right now about how bad South Africa is. Yeah. Right. But that's not what we heard in this conversation or with Beki or with Kobus. No, that's not, I've been, I've been countless times there and , my mom is from there, and , yes, South Africa has its problems, I'll tell you.

But I'm not feeling what the news is saying either.

[00:39:12] Adam Holt Tank: Well, certainly not with respect to this topic of financial advice. Not at all. The key is, is that right? Every, everyone is someplace in their journey. What's interesting to see is how advanced the mindset is in South Africa with respect to the care that's provided from financial services, even when they're captive.

And the interesting thing is, is that a great number of the financial advisors in South Africa are affiliated with a large.

[00:39:39] Derek Notman Tank: Organization and they do, they do amazing work. I mean, Kobus is affiliated and the guy is brilliant and people love him, and he's been doing it. I mean, it's, it's, it, ah, we're onto something there.

I don't know if I can sum it up other than those two words that she said. But there's something to that. I'm glad you mentioned that.

[00:39:56] Adam Holt Tank: I'm part of a bigger team.

I'm part of a greater purpose. I am because we're on the same team despite all the divisiveness that we tend to hear about all the time in South. Right. We, on this side of the pond, we tend to hear that. Right. You just mentioned it at the same time. How can you have a principle like this that is overarching.

It's almost like having , a corporate mission, right? Like, these are our values despite all our mess, our family's messy, but this is what we stand for, and how is that actually helping deliver a better financial guide? Huh, interesting. Could see why she's head of that organization.

[00:40:31] Derek Notman Tank: A hundred percent.

Yeah. It makes total sense. They've got the right person at the helm for sure.

[00:40:35] Adam Holt Tank: Very cool. Awesome. Well, that's a great place to wrap up. I think people gotta be thinking to themselves, what can I do to have a culture, not maybe at a whole societal level, but maybe in my practice level that aligns our values, that what's in it for you is what's in it for me.

Mm-hmm. And that's a really interesting framework. I really encourage you all listening to think about, do I have an entire advice mission? I can communicate and I can replicate throughout all my clients. Very interesting.

[00:41:07] Derek Notman Tank: Yeah. I love it. I love it. What a great conversation.

Hmm. All right, well I think we'll leave it. I mean, people are probably sleeping at this point, so,

[00:41:19] Adam Holt Tank: or daydreaming. It could be day or daydreaming. Yeah. Coming up with their vision.

[00:41:23] Derek Notman Tank: Yeah. Yeah. That's good stuff. Well, thank you, you Lelani, for an amazing conversation. Really appreciate it and just excited to be with you later this year. And, Adam, good seeing you as always, brother. Of

[00:41:34] Adam Holt Tank: course. Thanks so much everybody.

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