Ep43 - Rethink: Financial Well-Being Starts Day One – Featuring Catherine Morgan

In this episode, H. Adam Holt and Derek Notman talk with Catherine Morgan, founder of The Money Panel and bestselling author of It's Not About the Money, about the rise of holistic financial wellness in the advice profession. Morgan shares the personal experience that reshaped her relationship with money and explains why advisors are often too time-constrained to explore clients' deeper financial beliefs and behaviors. The discussion explores how building client confidence and emotional trust can unlock a more meaningful advisor-client relationship.

• What holistic financial wellness means in practice
• Why advisors often lack time to explore clients' money mindsets
• The connection between personal experience and financial behavior
• Building client confidence through deeper conversations
• The missing opportunity in traditional financial planning
• Catherine Morgan's journey from advisor to financial coach

Full timestamped transcript.

[00:00:28] H. Adam Holt: Derek is holistic financial wellness. Legit.

[00:00:34] Derek N. H. Notman: Well first of all, it's a great use of the word legit. That's pretty legit. But that's an interesting question that you bring up. I think it is. I think there's , this transformation happening almost before our eyes. And it's a better direction I think, that we're headed.

is it touchy feely? Does it sound a little hokey? Maybe, depending on how you hear it. Yeah. But there's so much more to it. There's so much more meat to the bone on this one that I think it's really, really important. , what do you think?

[00:01:09] H. Adam Holt: It's too legit to quit my man.

[00:01:11] Derek N. H. Notman: legit to quit.

[00:01:12] H. Adam Holt: It is. I, I don't think we, anybody wants to hear us sing

[00:01:15] Derek N. H. Notman: No, I don't. I don't. I can't sing

[00:01:17] H. Adam Holt: But you just basically aged yourself, which

[00:01:19] Derek N. H. Notman: I did age myself. I do have a big clock on a and a gold necklace around my neck as well.

[00:01:24] H. Adam Holt: You look great. I have to say the Flava flavor is coming out. You know, it's funny because in our last podcast with Dave Carr from Equitable Advisors, He brought up the fact that institutionally, they're investing in training financial professionals to become holistic financial planners or coaches for that matter,

[00:01:48] Derek N. H. Notman: Yes, he did.

[00:01:49] H. Adam Holt: and they're not the only ones. We've talked to a couple of companies and also independence, and we'll call them the early leaders of holistic financial planning that have moved to this concept, but I think a lot of financial advisors don't understand it, and it does sound like.

A therapy session, and they don't necessarily know how this defers from the typical fact finding projections, asset allocation, implementation, customer service around performance. The execution of, we'll call it traditional financial planning, has been very academic and analytical, not necessarily driven into this idea of wellness.

So why do you think this is becoming such a big topic?.

[00:02:35] Derek N. H. Notman: I am not sure the why. It. But my impression is that more and more people are realizing how emotional their money is for one reason or another. I I don't know why. I mean, and there's probably more than one reason, but people are realizing, wow, my money makes me feel this way. Retirement or paying for my kids' college or buying my second dream home, whatever it is, makes me feel a certain way.

And ultimately my feelings drive my financial decisions. So I should probably pay more attention to that. And I think this is where we have this problem is because we have this generation or generations of advisors in traditional financial planning and sales that doesn't talk about that stuff, at least as a core part of their process. But what's cool is that the, the consumer's driving this and more and more people are being exposed to it and aware of it. So, I wish I knew the reason. We need a researcher to figure that one out. Um, and that's not flavor, flavor myself, , but, uh,

[00:03:43] H. Adam Holt: I'm sure you could do it.

[00:03:45] Derek N. H. Notman: and all my free time

[00:03:47] H. Adam Holt: Yeah, I was saying flavor. Flavor could actually do it, but we have a guest actually today that we're going to bring on who really, really studies this and I think we have this research and we're gonna share it with everybody because this interview with Katherine Morgan was really insightful for us and was longer than we expected it to be because it really is just a fantastic conversation.

We hope you stick around and listen to this completely. There's some real great takeaways. Introduce us to Catherine Morgan, if you wouldn't mind, Derek.

[00:04:14] Derek N. H. Notman: She is a recovering financial advisor, turned certified financial coach, and really focuses on the financial wellness aspect of people and their money. And and She has very thoughtful, emotionally charged, connected bits of advice and information for people.

So you definitely want to be able , to listen to her. I actually got in touch with her because she is part of this group called The Business Chicks. And she actually went to Necker Island with Richard Branson and a group of these. Other successful females and the whole core of their group was talking about financial wellness, financial abuse, how to make things better.

And that really got my attention very early on. I'm like, wow, she's able to get to Neer Island with Richard Branson and talk about this stuff. There's something here I want to know. So she runs a couple businesses. She lives in a small island right now, south of England, but she has been stateside as well.

, just a really great, person professionally, personally. , serves a lot of folks, but also serves other advisors, we'll put the links in the notes, but she's got some really interesting things to share about financial wellness and her perspective I think we can learn from.

[00:05:31] H. Adam Holt: And I, I know she's written a,, a bestselling book called, it's Not About the Money, and that's , also her podcast. So we asked Catherine actually to share how she got into this in the first place.

[00:05:41] Catherine Morgan: What I think what happened for me is I had a very personal. Transformation in my own relationship with money after I almost lost my second son to bacterial meningitis when he was five weeks. And the impact of that for me was I went into a huge spiral of, uh, anxiety and, uh, P T S D, post-traumatic stress disorder.

And my relationship with money at the time as a practicing financial advisor at that point was pretty bad. Like I would live in constant debt, recurring debt, shame cycles. As a financial advisor, so you could imagine the, the layers of guilt and shame that are attached to

I should be good with money because I'm a financial advisor. I should know everything about money.

And it just went to show me that even though you can know everything about money from a logical perspective, it doesn't make you good with money. And this is what my experience was personally. And I then started to build a consumer business to help other people transform their relationship with money after I'd healed myself.

And what was interesting for me is the. Impact that, that work I was doing over here with day-to-day clients was then impacting my ability to, um, connect in with the work I was doing as a financial planner and building cashflow forecast plans and giving financial advice on products. There was this huge missing piece of the puzzle for me, which is where are we helping clients to make better financial decisions for themselves.

Much more empowering, uh, than just telling them what they should be doing. Um, and so that, that's the connection between the work that we do in supporting the consumer business and helping financial professionals to be better at what they do.

[00:07:31] Derek N. H. Notman: Katherine, thank you for, for sharing that, that heartfelt story.

[00:07:34] Catherine Morgan: I mean that, that I think will resonate with a lot of people. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but sounds like a lot of good came out of it. Yeah, he's like the happiest nine year old boy now. Oh, that's brilliant. I love it. I love it. The like a little beam of magic. And it was, it was a, obviously a very interesting time, but there's so many experiences that we all have, whether it's to do with health in our own lives or our families, um, and.

With our clients, you know, clients are going through and experiencing significant traumas, , and little traumas that can impact on their ability to make decisions because the, the way that we make decisions. Are not based on behaviors, or mindset. It's, it's the what the body stores, you know, and we are kind of going more into the therapy space here.

I, I appreciate that financial panels are not therapists, but I do appreciate that. , the way that we establish our relationship with ourself and how we feel drives the behaviors. So therefore, it would make natural sense to understand the emotions. Mm-hmm. that sit behind the decisions that we make, whether it's related specifically to money or not, so that we can help our clients to get better outcomes and to live happier lives.

[00:08:56] Derek N. H. Notman: That resonates so much. And clearly you have a unique perspective. As you just outlined. So from that perspective, and currently right now you're in the Channel Islands, you know, just south of the UK and you've spent time in the States. What is your perspective of the financial advice? Market. Such a great question.

I think there's, there's lots of really positive changes and shifts that are happening in financial services. What I have experienced now for just over 23, 24 years, is I believe that there is a greater shift towards things like behavioral finance, much more focused on the planning aspect.

And trying to make financial education more accessible to more people. And I think there's some really positive things happening in that space. Social media alone, , allows people an opportunity to share their stories, to, , gain more credibility and build more trust with potentially, you know, new clients that would quite frankly never go and see a financial advisor because there's so much.

Shame and guilt attached to even going to speak to a financial professional because they, they weren't taught about money at school. And, and I see there's some really positive shifts, even with things like Netflix documentaries. I, I've been involved with some of the, , projects, , specifically around money as well, with, , the Virgin Unite Trust.

I spent a week on. Necar Island with Richard Branson this year talking about things like financial abuse, financial education. His daughter actually does a lot of work in that space. So, there's lots of really positive things happening. Where I feel like we need to continue to drive change is in a couple of ways, firstly, , it would be so beautiful to be able to bring about.

Both the logical linear way that we make decisions around money and the practical things that clients need advice on, you know, tax planning, investing, all of those things. , and in addition to that, add in this more kind of right brain creative side of the way that the brain operates when we are talking about money.

Because actually when we are talking about people's financial future, the future is full of such uncertainty and. When we're asking clients questions about what do you wanna do in retirement? What do you wanna do with this money in 10 years time, do you think you're gonna need to access it? You know, one of the risk questions, are you gonna need to access this money in the next 10 years?

You know? How comfortable do you feel with these ups and downs in the stock market? Everything is is positioned in the future. Now I find that really curious because the future's full of uncertainty and yet we're trying to help a client to make decisions about something that is uncertain. And what we're actually doing is we are parking our client's future happiness into the future.

And the only certainty around money is uncertainty. And we try and. Create this emotional reaction and feeling that we want the clients to have financial stability, financial security, peace of mind, and that can come right now. Like that doesn't have to wait. And I would love to see through the integration of things like financial coaching and financial therapy, how we can help the client to feel safe.

Feel secure in their current reality present moment. That's the only thing where we actually have any element of certainty at all is in the here and now and not waiting for them for the, you know, for their happiness to, to happen in the future.

[00:12:48] H. Adam Holt: See, this is really interesting and, and I'm really glad that you brought this up and I know Derek and I are nodding because we very much, uh, agree with your perspective.

And as a result, a lot of advisors have been running practices that have been pretty much consistent with the way we've run practices for the past 10, 15, 20 years, and also with both of us 20 some years experience in this space. I'm curious though, what do you think advisors don't see coming? What's the missing opportunity?

[00:13:15] Catherine Morgan: I think the missing opportunity is in their ability to have more confidence in how they can support their clients at a much deeper level. I feel like quite often, I mean, when I think back to when I was a practicing advisor, I didn't have the time to really explore deeply with my clients, their emotional, feelings around money because I had a fact find to complete.

I had a plan to build a and, and it was very much a kind of, I just need to ask these questions to tick a box kind of exercise. And I, and I know that some of these things are changing and shifting, but I feel like the missing opportunities is, A time to really deeply connect with our clients and to really start the wheel emotion to help them to shift those generational beliefs for their clients so that we can start to educate the next generation.

Um, and and how we do that is by learning how to listen and listen in more intuitively and more deeply than we. Probably learn how to do, uh, and how to communicate to, , our client's emotional relationship with money. And also the benefit of doing this is that it's gonna help a financial professional to start thinking about how they can safeguard their business for the future and actually enjoy some of the work they do more by having those more meaningful conversations with clients.

[00:14:48] Derek N. H. Notman: I think you just list actually a pretty important action step and that is to be a better listener, , which is really, really important. Do you have any other tactical advice, something that an advisor listening today, or a coach could, or even a consumer that might be considering working with an advisor?

What's one or two tactical things someone can walk away with today and say, Hey, I can do this. I can get a little bit better.

[00:15:11] Catherine Morgan: Oh, there's so many. Okay, so one of the things that's come to mind is, , let's create an environment that is an all auditory, , participation experience with money. So, , when I say, all sensory participation. I was to ask you a question, Such as, you know, what's your relationship like with money? One of you might start seeing pictures or you, you can start to sort of remember the time when you went to the shop and you bought your first pound or penny suites and you dropped them in the street or you know, you lost them at school or, you know, there'll be memories that come up of saving money in your piggy banks.

Some of you will hear, like, I remember the, the cashier printing. Uh, and updating my little passbook that I had, that showed me my balance of what was in my savings account. Some of you might even be able to smell the coin. Do you know when you pick up a coin from the street and your mom said, oh, don't pick that up.

It's dirty. And you could literally smell the, the bronze, , scent of the coin in your hand. , and that's just an example of how we, we all learn very differently around money. Some of you'll be, will be very kinesthetic. You know, it's about the feeling, it's the intuition that you experience. When somebody gives you 50 quid and says, go and spend that on yourself.

You might be like, oh, I c I can't spend that on myself. I'm gonna go and give it away to somebody else who needs it more than I do. Because of my deservingness around money. You know, it's an all sensory participation. So I am super curious in think about the practice that you are in right now. If you're a financial planner or a professional listening to this, how can you bring this auditory, kinesthetic, visual aspect into your conversations with clients?

Now you might be thinking, well, how do I know. How do I know if a client is kinesthetic or auditory or visual or all these things? There are quizzes that you can do, but the most important way to do it, and the easiest way to do it is to listen to their language. Now, let me give you an example of what I mean by this.

If a client says, I hear what you say. I hear what you're saying, Adam, I need to invest this money to get a better return. The word hear is giving you an insight that their auditor. If they say, ah, I can see that now. Yeah, I can see myself playing golf at the age of 65 or having three holidays rather than two.

I can see that, you know, or they may, may start to describe that scene to you. You know, they're gonna be quite visual. Often our experience shows us that. It's not necessarily a gender thing, like women are more visual, men are more visual. Um, but we do seem to, from our own experience anyway in our communities, a lot of women are very esthetic.

They're very feeling and intuition based. Uh, men can often be more logical and linear in their approach to money. Um, but that's not always and stubborn the case and still . Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. But don't take these things for granted. Don't make those assumptions based on who you have sitting in front of you.

Explore this with your clients. Listen to their language. Replay those things back to them. You know, you asked me about listening. We can become a much better listener by being able to hold silence and space for as awkwardly long as possible before we can then just say to the. It, this is what I heard you say.

Mm-hmm. And repeat that back, because for the clients to hear what they said about money and their relationship to it back might be the first time that they've ever had a conversation about their feelings around money.

[00:19:00] H. Adam Holt: Hmm. I'm curious though, because I'm very, I'm a big fan of this as well. What happens when.

When you have this experience, right? So if you understand their modality or their sensory acuity around how they feel about money or their emotions, as you've said, what does that mean to the financial advisor? Why is it imperative that advisors can start doing this now? What is it gonna mean for them?

[00:19:23] Beki: Yeah, it's a great question. And the, the, the, the word that comes up for me here is awareness. Because , quite frankly, we are not expecting you to be financial therapists and sit them on a couch and you know, oh God, that was a terrible memory you have of money. And it may be suitable at times to have a really good.

Relationship with a therapist or a counselor or someone you know in your little black book that you can refer clients to as and when necessary. Um, but I actually believe as a financial planner or a pro financial professional, your job is to just bring awareness to these things because awareness is the most powerful stage of self-awareness that can unlock.

Some of those thinking, , conversations or feeling conversations, they're gonna help you to have much deeper, more meaningful conversations with clients. And they all remember that. They all remember their conversations because of how it makes them feel.

Hmm. I think there's an opportunity here, we, we also agree, each Derek and I have very similar journeys to use and how we're trying to influence the marketplace. Yeah. To get more. Meaningful expand services to coaching. I've done a holistic life coaching.

I also, went to Tony Robbins 30 years ago and all of, and then we learned literally what you're talking about, but the application of it into our business has been lacking. I think people, advisors specifically are more willing to entertain now expanding the services beyond the Excel-based mathematical, right.

But they don't understand why it's important, how to monetize it if this is a business. Mm-hmm. And whether the clients are even going to respond or look at them in that way. Mm-hmm. And so they tend to be afraid of approaching this perspective of going into the uncharted territories of emotional discussions.

Because you look at me as a technical profess. Make a mathematical decision. Is this the best tax regime? Is this the best? Mm-hmm. investment strategy is this, the insurance cost effectiveness. So I, I say this to you because I'd love to find a way to frame why this is imperative to add to your practice of financial it, it's key over the next 10 years.

[00:21:48] Derek N. H. Notman: It's, it's key. I, I have a quick comment about why I think it may not be working. It's interesting, Adam, like, yeah, we, like, we're seeing as these techno, you know, technicians, right, from the client's perspective. But what about like inside the profession?

[00:22:01] Catherine Morgan: This is where I think, um, if you can help a financial professional to look at their own relationship with money first, start with self first. They're gonna experience a transformation. a hundred percent undoubtedly. And they can use that experience to harbor better conversations with their clients, which is easy, right?

Because we are all selfish creatures, you know? Mm-hmm. , our needs ultimately come first. Yep. And should come first. The needs of the advisor should come first before the needs of their clients, because, You know, it's the old ad added saying, isn't it? That , you put your own oxygen mask on first before you look after anybody else.

Totally. And actually, is there an opportunity to experience those shifts in your own? Complicated relationship with money and , all of us have had experiences of overs saving or overspending or over hoarding or having arguments with our partners about money because we come from two completely different relationships and two completely different sets of influences on our own relationship with money.

We've had conflict, we've been through divorce, we've lost loved ones, we've all experienced these things in our life. So let's start.

[00:23:20] H. Adam Holt: The bottom line is that it influences our behavior, and I think that's what you're getting at because it's ultimately the behaviors that we choose, which leads to a wealthy lifestyle, especially financially.

Sure. Or even a grateful one, right? So understanding what's enough,

[00:23:34] Catherine Morgan: but we don't choose our relationship. We don't choose the behaviors. We don't get to choose the behaviors. We don't just wake up one day and. I know I'm gonna become a saver, , it doesn't, I mean, sure it can work for a short period of time, but what's driving the behavior is the emotional response.

And the emotional response is based on the influences that we've had. It's the core beliefs. It's the unconscious biases, it's the unconscious, , beliefs that we have carried. From birth, and actually there's lots of evidence to show. Epigenetics shows us that it's actually carried through more than seven generations.

So we are behaving around money based on our ancestral patterns of what they learn and experienced around money.

[00:24:23] H. Adam Holt: Is there anything that you think needs to be heard, whether controversial or not, that the industry is not paying attention to?

[00:24:31] Catherine Morgan: There's a few areas that I feel like collectively and collaboratively we could come together to make this a much better place for us and for our clients. And the one interesting thread that combines everything together is, Wellbeing, and  I really believe that financial wellbeing should be the starting point and not the goal. . And so when we think about harboring, uh, an improved financial wellbeing for our clients, that's not the goal. It's the starting point. We can do that right now and instead of.

Talking about our future for our clients is let's instead practice helping them to step into more gratitude, helping them to feel greater happiness now, rather than projecting that happiness into the future, which may never come. And the way that we do that is that we stop relating our happiness to being dependent on certain things happen.

You know, we create a whole bunch of dependencies in life, don't we? You know, if I have more money, then I'll do this. Once I've changed my jobs, then I'll be happier. Once I eat less food, I'll be more confident about my body. We create all these, this bucket of dependencies in life, things that we have to have in order to be happier, and therefore we just park all that distance.

Um, happiness into, you know, into the future and, and true fulfillment. Really a true wellbeing for me is about letting go of all of those conditions, all those dependencies, all of those reasons that we have to meet in order to be happy and, and aim instead for. Let's just create more of the feeling in the here and now in that present moment.

You know, getting clients to keep gratitude diaries, I, I'm actually doing a video one this year. I grab my phone, I have a reminder on my phone at 10 past eight in the evening, and I do a ten second video recording today. I am grateful for. This, and it just gets the energy shifting around how we feel about ourselves, because the relationship we have with money is really a mirror reflection of the relationship that we have with ourselves.

[00:26:44] H. Adam Holt: Wow, so I heard like 40 mic drops in that presentation. This is the third time I've listened to this now and I keep coming up with more notes. I really encourage everybody to listen to that one again, Derek.

[00:26:59] Derek N. H. Notman: Yeah, there's just, I, I was thinking the same thing. I've got all these notes and these points I wanna make, and it's almost like drinking from a fire hose. just so much here. The overall takeaway though, is actually simple. is emotional. Help our clients tap into that. Now, there's a lot of ways, and we'll get into the bullet points here in a second, but it, it really is, and I, I love her perspective and take on this.

And she's coming at it from a very genuine , place. And, it's not just, , power suit, power tie, power windows, , profession anymore. , , , we're helping people do the most important things in their lives, happen to help them do that with this thing we call money.

[00:27:48] H. Adam Holt: Very interesting. You think that she's actually answered The first question that I asked you in the beginning Is holistic financial wellness legit?

I don't know how you could say she didn't. I mean, a hundred percent. Yes. It's legit. And then some,

well, okay, so let, so let's do it. Let's hear your list. So I, I'm, I'm really curious to hear if you heard what I heard. So tell us your takeaways. So if, if you weren't paying attention, and now is the time to really think about what you can do, what are the takeaways or what are the insights that you heard?

[00:28:17] Derek N. H. Notman: Advisors listening, get out a yellow pad and write this down please. Or on your phone or something. I think the over one of the overall takeaways was that there are these positive shifts happening more to more behavioral finance and you're seeing large companies promote this. You're seeing a lot more people actually get PhDs in this and do a lot of work around, so we know it's happening.

, I like her point about there typically has been a lot of shame on the client's side to go speak with the financial professional, and I could see that from a tax perspective. , even with an attorney, but definitely with the work that we do as financial advisors, because there's no education. , a lot of us made mistakes.

I've made financial mistakes. So now you feel bad about it, you're shamed and you don't, you don't want to go talk to someone cuz they're gonna make you feel terrible. Well, it's not the truth. Most advisors don't. If you, if your advisor makes you feel terrible, I'm on a mistake. You go get a different advisor.

I'll tell you that right now. ,

[00:29:16] H. Adam Holt: Now you gotta feel safe.

[00:29:17] Derek N. H. Notman: gotta feel. But that doesn't mean that that financial advisors, this brings me to my next point, have to be therapists necessarily, because the work we do is different than a financial coach, uh, the work that Catherine does and so forth. , but we can, and we do have this power to have these conversations with clients that help bring awareness, this emotional awareness to what's really important to our clients.

And these conversations really help unlock. Clients feel about their money and that is super important. And she said that resonated with me. They will remember how you made them feel. And that's not just having an nice cup of coffee at your awesome boardroom table in your brick and mortar office that used to be hard to make you feel goes, you know, Adam, you and I both did that

[00:30:04] H. Adam Holt: No,

[00:30:04] Derek N. H. Notman: Uh, but there's, there's, there's more to it that you get, you know, I've had clients cry because, in a good way, in a good way, uh, because of these things. I, I think it's really, really important. Um, this financial wellbeing should be a starting point. I really like that.

Help people feel more happiness and gratitude today, and not just at some future point. You're gonna just be miserable for 30 years, but trust me, when you retire in the future, you're gonna be wicked happy. Oh man. Make me feel happy today too. Come on. Anyways. How, how does that jam , with what , you came up, you

[00:30:37] H. Adam Holt: Oh, I had a lot of the same ones because I think she just, she had, gosh, almost meme moments there where they could be snippets. , and you can see where her coaching really comes out there, because every sentence could be taken apart. I, I thought there was some really interesting things that, which you talked about advisors, right?

We do know, quote unquote, a lot more than our clients about money. We've been trained, we've spent time, we've got experience, but that doesn't make us good with money because we're all tied to this emotional heritage that we either have accrued in our early days with money or what we saw other people experiencing, or maybe even our parents, or even early generat.

Although that was really interesting, uh, and I can relate to that, right? Having grandparents that grew up, you know, p pulling the stamps off of unsent letters because they wanted to save the 2 cents, and, you know, picking up a penny on the floor, that was more than good luck. That was just good financial sense and yet, You know, choosing to put all their money into bank and, and not earn any interest is, these are historical, we'll call them heritage, financial behaviors and emotions based upon fear that, you know, cause them to have certain behaviors that led to, of course, perpetuating the same outcome.

And if we're trying to hope to help our clients get more financially, well if we could say that, or maybe wealthy. Perhaps we need to help them address the real emotions that are stopping the good behaviors that are gonna drive the positive outcome. And that's why I think this is such a, an interesting aspect because whereas we tend to, uh, I don't want to say debunk or laugh at traditionally the emotional attack of this problem of financial success or wellness.

It really does go down to the basics and I, , I think she did a great job framing that. I love the idea of the sensory perception of communicating the way that your clients do. , I've been trained on this as well. I was really excited to hear her say this. In other words, when our clients saying, you know, I hear you, or I see what you are saying, or, that feels right to me, and try to , connect to them on a.

Sensory level to let them know that you are experiencing what they are experiencing in a similar way, and that will feel connected, will build rapport, and of course, help them understand that you're on the same page with them. So I, I, I'd love a, a bunch of these things here and I love what you said. Also, financial wellbeing is a starting point.

It's not the goal. Uh, and if we can understand their emotional motivation, it'll help 'em change. and the last thing she said was that money is a mirror of the relationship we have with ourselves. That was interesting. That got me on a whole bunch of like, wow. I wonder what I, if I understand what that means, But it's something to contemplate on your drive home.

Uh, is money a mirror of the relationship we have with ourselves? In other words, where we choose to put our money, how we choose to save or hoard it, how we choose to invest in others or contribute it, how we tend to take care of other people before ourselves. It's a real interesting thing that money does offer a.

Vantage into how our clients and ourselves tend to value what matters. Right? There was a great quote many years ago that, that I, of course, people compete over who said it. Don't tell me what you care about. Show me your balance sheet. I'll tell you what you care about. Right.

[00:33:50] Derek N. H. Notman: Yep, that's exactly right.

[00:33:52] H. Adam Holt: really the point.

[00:33:54] Derek N. H. Notman: I really hope that folks listening to this got a number of great takeaways like that that we did. There's so much here, so much importance. Go back and listen a time or two if you have a moment, because there are some things you can do to incorporate in your practice, whether it's just better listening skills, changing your fact gathering process when you're meeting with new clients.

Review meetings and listening to there's these little things you can do that can actually have a really powerful impact. So, just, just awesome, awesome stuff. , Catherine, thank you so much for joining us, especially from Over the Pond. Uh, we appreciate it. And, , everyone please make sure you follow her, , on LinkedIn, Instagram will drop, , links to all of that.

How do we wanna wrap this, uh, this up today? Adam, any other words of wisdom or bad dad jokes you want to give us?

[00:34:40] H. Adam Holt: don't have any of that stuff. All I have is contemplation in my mind of

[00:34:44] Derek N. H. Notman: I know

[00:34:45] H. Adam Holt: a better job being a better listener and leaving awkward silence in between my statements just to allow people to contemplate and contribute. How was that?

[00:34:57] Derek N. H. Notman: I wanted to leave some awkward silence, but you interrupted it.

[00:34:59] H. Adam Holt: I was leaving it. That was my awkward silence. It doesn't suit well on a podcast,

[00:35:04] Derek N. H. Notman: no, it

[00:35:05] H. Adam Holt: Derek, my friend, until the next time where we get to laugh together and of course learn together. Thanks so much for being part of this.

[00:35:12] Derek N. H. Notman: Likewise. Cheers, brother. Thanks everybody for listening and uh, till next time.

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