Ep27 - Rethink: Relatability as a Growth Strategy – Featuring JR Gondeck

Adam and Derek talk with JR Gondeck, Managing Director and Partner at The Lerner Group at Hightower, about whether advisory firms actually reflect the clients they serve. Gondeck explains how his team grew to roughly $2 billion in AUM by moving from a transactional, male-dominated model to a fee-based practice built around gender-balanced advisor pairings, transparency with junior staff, and mentoring the next generation. The episode offers a practical blueprint for firms looking to diversify their teams, deepen multigenerational client relationships, and future-proof succession planning.

• Whether advisory firms reflect the diversity of their client base
• Pairing male and female advisors for better family-planning outcomes
• Giving up short-term compensation to invest in junior team members
• Moving from transactional sales to fee-based, planning-led advice
• Transparency as a tool for building next-generation buy-in
• Advisors' responsibility to educate clients on crypto

Full timestamped transcript.

[00:00:30] Derek N. H. Notman: Adam, is your firm as diverse as your client base?

[00:00:36] H. Adam Holt: Wow. I don't know, actually, but I think. My firm represents the decision makers of our clients. Ooh. What do you think was by yours?

[00:00:54] Derek N. H. Notman: I probably would answer the same way.

It's almost a reflection of my firm. Yeah. Like which one drives, which like, I think definitely a reflection of the decision makers. Well, what about the next generation, the third generation, the fourth generation

[00:01:14] H. Adam Holt: of your clients, or maybe the generation zero, right? The generation above our clients. We clearly don't necessarily look like them.

I mean, , isn't that what you're asking? Can we empathize? Can we connect? Can we relate to all the constituents of our clients?

[00:01:34] Derek N. H. Notman: I think that would be a really hard thing to do for one person.

[00:01:37] H. Adam Holt: Right. But you mean a one person

[00:01:39] Derek N. H. Notman: firm?

A one person firm.

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe to a level. I, yeah, but uh, I mean, this is a diversity question, right? That's what we're talking about here. It

[00:01:50] H. Adam Holt: could be it. Yeah, it I guess, I mean, could be beyond that, right? I mean, if you just said it, right, right. You said generational too. Right? Do you relate to the children and the grandchildren of your clients who will wind up being your clients

maybe

[00:02:04] Derek N. H. Notman: is the big bit there.

And I mean, let's face it. It's a lot easier to retain a client or. Someone that's part of a client's family then to try to get a new one.

[00:02:15] H. Adam Holt: That's true. , something like 90% of the clients leave the advisor when the parents die or when there's turnover.

[00:02:23] Derek N. H. Notman: So I don't have any research on this. I think you're right. It's a high percentage. I have seen comments and heard stories of my parents died and my parents using this advisor forever and I'm 30 and they don't understand me.

Right. I don't connect with this individual who tends to be a little older with a little bit brown hair. You know

[00:02:44] H. Adam Holt: what dad's golfing, buddy? I

[00:02:45] Derek N. H. Notman: know you dad's golfing buddy. Like, like I don't play golf. Right? So

[00:02:50] H. Adam Holt: he was at my wedding, but he sat in table 42. I'm no real connection with them.

They didn't dance. They didn't really understand the music at my wedding, but dad wanted him to be there. Right. And I get it. Yeah. So that's an interesting relatability, but even talking about beyond diversity, because the modern client is changing, right. It's not this classic joke that we always make that dominating our business was white, older men who played golf.

Right. Right. And the modern customer doesn't look like that. So the question is really an interesting one. Does our firms reflect or represent. Our clients to be, or maybe even the clients we have.

[00:03:37] Derek N. H. Notman: Yeah. I, it, that, that's a, it's a really fascinating question. And I think that when you look at it from a scalability perspective, a growth perspective, how do I maintain my practice? How do I stay relevant? How do I keep assets in the business, things of that nature, it would be helpful to talk or.

At a firm that's doing it and learn some best practices from that. I mean, we love examples. We talked about in our last episode, right? Like that's one of the ways we learn. It's true. It's true from others. Right.

[00:04:05] H. Adam Holt: So yeah. Well I think it was great. That's a, probably a pretty good lead in for jr.

Geck actually, we had an opportunity to interview him. If you don't know Jr. He's a managing director partner at high tower, obviously one of the largest RAs out, there's a co. Their family value at risk. And here's a gentleman who's created obviously a good amount of success, 2 billion in the AUM 21 people actually on that team.

So you can see, they've got some level of scale. They've dealt with this working with four generations of clients. He's own history comes like many of us from either the wirehouses or the insurances. He's a Morgan Stanley Smith Barney veteran. And of course, you know, like most of us, he started in the stock business and migrated into planning over.

MBA bachelor in science, finance. So clearly comes from the business, but interesting to hear what he had to say about how he structured his firm and how he learned over time, how to meet these. Are you ready to hear this Derek? Yeah

[00:04:59] Derek N. H. Notman: thought this was a great episode in conversation, so let's jump in.

[00:05:04] H. Adam Holt: So Jr. This is really great that you joined us. Thanks for taking the time to be here. What's your unique perspective of the financial advice market?

[00:05:13] JR Gondeck: I think I've seen it all. When I started, I joined the industry at 21 in my first career. And as you can imagine, I started as very transaction based. What, in the movies or trying to sell this hot IPO, it was really transaction mailed to mail, building up money, building up wealth, all from that aspect.

And I saw it as that way. We, our business was always kind of fiduciary style, where were a fee for management, but spending my first 10 years at Morgan Stanley at the time was heavily transaction. Just to see the evolution. So spent 10 years of mortgage daily. Now 10 years at high tower, just see the evolution to go overall in the industry from really transactional to more fee and planning based.

There's a lot long way to go. Probably still a lot of the industry, but it's been a great evolution to see it get to a better way. I think in a lot of ways,

[00:06:03] Derek N. H. Notman: I'm sure you've got some fun stories from your early days tell us. What would you say is a missing opportunity or challenge that financial advisors, even our industry aren't seen or facing currently?

I think one

[00:06:16] JR Gondeck: of them that you see is as I talk about concept giving up to grow, and I think a lot of times what happens is you want to do it all yourself and you get to a comfortable level of business. And then you're fine with the nine to two schedule and work things out. And it's really hard to bring some junior people in your team along, give up maybe some short term compensation to train them along with a way, because it's hard, you gotta spend more time.

But then what you find is the more you give up, the more that grows overall. And I think that's a big struggle for a lot of practices and it was for our business, but my mentor was very much of that mindset to invest in me and others. Grow the overall business. And it's just hard, cuz it's easier to do it yourself as opposed to taking that extra time to give up some short term compensation, to have that bigger business long.

[00:07:09] H. Adam Holt: Yeah, that's interesting. We've talked about that a couple times about the mentorship and how we bring the next generation in. I'd be curious though, you mentioned giving up short term revenue or capital to make that investment again in your practice. , how have you been attracting the next generation?

[00:07:24] JR Gondeck: We've really gone from intern, right. And we have a two, , that started as intern. That'll be partners in the near future and have some sense. And we find it that way. And it's hard because I think the industry too is continues to be very male dominated overall, which is a change I would like to see overall my team overall more than half female and male dynamic.

And again, I think the more you start and you can of show the way and really start early in the career is that long term investment cuz to me I think the industry struggles. Kinda age discrimination that if there isn't a better way to say that if you aren't 50 years old or 60 years old, you're not a good advisor.

And my philosophy for the team has been, if you're educated, know what you're doing age doesn't matter. Really. You overcome that with knowledge, expertise and such. So we've really had a lot of success starting early in the career and spending the time five to 10 years to build that long term base with the team.

[00:08:22] Derek N. H. Notman: It almost sounds like your business model has shifted just like you're planning with clients shifted, like it went from transactional short term to all right. We're gonna do longer term planning, bigger vision down the road. It's gonna take more work. We're not gonna get paid as much today, probably, but clearly you guys are seeing that at high tower.

We're where there's some benefits. I like how you mentioned that you're really focused on making it more equitable from a male female perspective. You've gotta see some unique benefits by doing that versus others. That aren't,

[00:08:52] JR Gondeck:  I think it's

easy to talk about, right? Is my team is balanced, but the reality is you have to live, it you have to believe it and you have to see the results.

And we've done that where it's, I don't care if it's talking to a family where you have a male, female advisor, if it's planning to grow your business. and You're planning for the next few years with your business hearing both perspectives. its invaluable. And again, not that the old way that was heavily male dominated is bad.

It's just having the balance in listening and combining the two is just a better way. Overall, you get better results for your family planning and you get better results for your business as well.

[00:09:29] Derek N. H. Notman: It almost feels duh right. But like when you say it like that, . Yeah, that makes total sense. Why aren't we doing more of that?

And we

[00:09:37] JR Gondeck: talk about intentional inclusive communication, and it's just a better way overall for both families. And as you bring up the next generation, because I think so many times the older generation looks the next generation. It's that old mindset I walked in the snow uphill, both ways to school. The next generation has it so easy compared to what I had.

It's that mentality that you need to overcome as you're thinking about whether it's your kids or the next generation of leaders and team members, because it's just that mindset. I think that you have to overcome that, but again, if you invest and have the proper structure and share the equity in your practice or the cash flow in your practice, I think you get that long term buy-in to overcome that old ways in the snow up hill.

[00:10:23] H. Adam Holt: That's really great. I mean, you think about all the mentorship that we're all trying to do. All three of us actually, to help advisors lift them. Are there specific action steps that you think someone could put into action today or tomorrow in their practice to start approaching this ideal that you mentioned

[00:10:39] JR Gondeck: here?

It's transparency is the biggest thing I've found over the years, which is tricky, right? It's there. There's good and bad with transparency. The more you share, the more questions, the more challenges you can get over. That come with that, but I find the good outweighs the challenges that you have over time.

And again, it's the other thing you find is that the more transparency you have as you're learning the next generation, there's more buy-in. And the reality is they know more, are gonna be more helpful to grow. And then as the leaders of the team, you could step back over time because you've spent the time to cultivate the next generation.

And it's like a win-win long term. And that's what we.

[00:11:18] Derek N. H. Notman: Definitely action. I hope that advisors are listening to that. Cause I think it, it is a long play, but it's certainly worth the effort. And clearly you guys are seeing that benefit on the other side.

[00:11:28] JR Gondeck: Since the pandemic so much has changed too, whether it's overall business planning, because being stuck at home for the last couple of years, more or less has tired, a lot of people out.

And when you're thinking about your team to have that long term, it is a work life balance. It is a health balance, cuz the better you feel, the more productive you are. And I think a flexible schedule and other things are just critically important. We tend to work with half day Fridays and work from home Monday and Fridays to allow that recharge and rebalance.

And the same thing is promoting health within the team because I think it's critically important that you feel better, you're more productive and it just works overall. And I think. Been something we've done in the past, but it tried to take to another level since the pandemic.

[00:12:15] Derek N. H. Notman: I love to hear you say that I think it makes a ton of sense. You are gonna be doing better for yourself, for the firm and for your clients, if you are finding that balance and healthy. So that resonates Jr. I'm glad you brought it up. Is there anything that you think advisors or industry at large really needs to hear?

[00:12:32] JR Gondeck: Crypto is something that's super interesting on a lot of people's mind. I've been disappointed as an industry that regulation hasn't caught up to at least the planning aspect, cuz I think as advisors. We need to be educated on help navigate our clients through crypto and if nothing else, from a planning perspective, right?

I don't think you have to have an opinion, whether it's good or bad. The reality is a lot of our families own it. They have it, they're going to have it in the future. And if you don't plan around it and educated, you're leaving that to someone else. And as an industry, the regulation needs to catch up to this.

But I think if you're thinking about your practice, if you haven't studied it and educated, You're just putting yourself and your practice behind in the years to come.

. Other than just, we're adamant about the male, female dynamic and balance for practice, how important that is. But, and as you said, Derek, duh, right.

It's just easier said than done though. Cuz it's how do you do that? How do you, right.

[00:13:27] Derek N. H. Notman: I love how you guys are just you're making it happen.

[00:13:29] JR Gondeck: It, as I said, it works. It's not like you're just trying to be diversified.

It actually works when you spend the. Get the different views. And especially when you do family planning, cuz we all have different personalities, both men and women and just multi-generationally. So it's, that's just not a BS thing. It's the reality that the output grows and it's better for everyone.

[00:13:50] Derek N. H. Notman: Have you guys ever done any type of client survey or feedback to ask about this either directly or in a roundabout way? Just to gauge like, Hey, like we love having a male and female advisor or however that works.

[00:14:03] JR Gondeck: Well, I've just experienced myself, cuz there's just questions. When you're in a family meeting that I'm not comfortable bringing up as a dude.

I love it. But when it's brought up it's easier to talk about once it's on the table and it's just a comfortable environment. So it's really setting the stage for the conversation that I'm not gonna do as a male. But once it's out there, it's easy for all parties to converse above the topic.

That's

[00:14:26] H. Adam Holt: a great point. So it's so funny. You know what I was thinking about when you were saying that Jr. I was trying to imagine basically a dinner date, like a couple's date, where you go with one couple and only the guy shows up from one couple. It's not the same dynamics, right? It's not the same. I mean,

you're not gonna, you're gonna talk about golf the whole time. You, and someone's gonna be left out or whatever you talk about, but the point is that's, it's clearly awkward. So I'm I have a question. Are you saying that you have a standard, that there is a male and a female in every interaction or planning?

[00:14:56] JR Gondeck: Interac? Planning interaction. We try to, in our larger families, we have three advisors working them for the balance, the work life balance, and then continuity of information. And, but a lot of the overwhelming majority of the family meetings, cause that's something we do uniquely as well. Cuz those are just another level where you're talking legacy and there's emotion.

That's out there. It's hard for two dudes to do that. And that's basically what family planning. As a man, I'm gonna focus over my comfort zone over here. I'm not really getting much over there. Once you have both, you get both comfort zones and then you overlap. That's just the reality, which is my team. We speak , seven or eight different languages.

We're that's right. Diversified to get.

[00:15:36] Derek N. H. Notman: And you guys have gotta be like leading the pack from a diversity standpoint. Seriously,

[00:15:41] JR Gondeck: it works. And as you balance off different opinions and you grow right, and then leads to more and more better ideas, better thoughts, better. Totally.

[00:15:51] H. Adam Holt: So that was really interesting Derek, right?

I mean, I heard a bunch of different things in there. Let's unpack it. What did you. First,

[00:15:58] Derek N. H. Notman: I love how you use the word unpacked. You like that? That's your word?

[00:16:02] H. Adam Holt: it's it my word, or is it your word? I thought it's your word? Unpack. You go listen to all our podcasts. You were the packer. cause you're constantly moving.

So

[00:16:11] Derek N. H. Notman: you, I am constantly well, I'm constantly packing and unpacking.

[00:16:14] H. Adam Holt: That's what I mean. So, so unpack this one with your, you know, closing your golf clubs. what do you got? I don't play golf.

[00:16:21] Derek N. H. Notman: I know you do. Yeah, it was a great conversation with Jr. I love how he is boots on the ground and doing this stuff and, you know, right in it.

And it's cool. Like cuz he started, , stock picking, right? Like I, I envisioned a boiler room situation, a ton of young guys, left and right Wolf of wall street type of stuff. And he's made this great transition as he even talks about this male to male.

Dominated, transaction based , dynamic where now they're using a diverse teams approach and leading with advice. Instead I found that was really . Interesting. And look at the numbers, 2 billion in AUM they've got like something good work life balance. They've got four generations of clients.

It sounds like their diversity's clearly aligned with the diversity of their clients. So I thought that was really cool. I like how he jokes about. , Hey, like some dudes just shouldn't ask that question right. In a client meeting. And he brings up a really good point though, that sometimes it's really important.

Well, I would actually probably argue most times you need to have multiple perspectives, male and female . And I like how he talks about that and how they make it a point to have multiple advisors involved in our relationship. And sometimes it's just easier. For female to ask a certain question, to get it out on the table and have that conversation versus the old white guy.

Right. yeah. So I thought that was really interesting and clearly it is working for them. They're happy, they're healthy. They're promoting health within their practice, which is gonna also be something they can promote to their clients. I mean, those are the things I'm walking away with. Like, wow, that's really cool.

What a great example of what a, a practice almost of the future looks like. From someone who came from a background, , like ours. What do you think, Adam?

[00:18:02] H. Adam Holt: I knew the worklife balance stuff was gonna get your attention. Right. So I knew that

[00:18:05] Derek N. H. Notman: was, I loved that.

Yeah. My my radar was up on that one instantly

[00:18:09] H. Adam Holt: and he said work from home Mondays and Fridays, half day, I believe on Fridays just to kinda recover. You know, it's interesting because we've all adopted some level of work. From home balance or maybe we're trying to figure it out. So I it's funny cuz we talk about whether people are gonna go back in some measure.

We know a lot or not, you've been such a champion of the remote work anyway. And that with connector that of course, that we know that there's ways to execute that scale it out, learn from others, take best practices, certainly from what you've done. And I think it's great to see even larger teams starting to adopt this because that's been the question I think for a lot of financial advisors that have full staff do they need to be in the office every day?

Do all the advisors need to be present. And I think many of 'em are learning that they can pull it off. They can actually, they can figure it out. So I thought that was interesting. I agree with you the male female perspectives in a room makes a big difference. I know, even for my own practice, Derek I kind of joke in many ways that, because I was raised by a single mom, I tend to be more of a listener and I tend to relate.

But I would probably argue with myself looking back that as much as I think I'm empathetic to different parties needs in the room, in the meeting, right. When I need to explain when I need to not explain when I need to go deep, when I need to step back and be emotional when I need to be relatable or when I need to be a boss.

And I think you know, trying to meet everybody's needs as a chameleon is not as easy as it sounds. At the end of the day. It's not always about how we think we're communicating, but how that recipient is experiencing it. And that doesn't mean because we think we're being empathetic, that we're being relatable.

And that's, I think the dynamic that happens when you see somebody across the table who looks like you sounds like you could be your buddy. And of course you can grow with and have some commonality of time and experience and music you like. And there's a different level. I think of connectivity.

And when we talk about the human advice role, not the technology behind all this delivery of advice, I think it's gonna be really important that we promote the relatability of our firms to our clients and the next generations,

[00:20:14] Derek N. H. Notman: a hundred percent. Yeah, , you know, you're making me think here also that if we do want to capture the next generation in the third and the fourth generation well, we should have a diverse team of advisors involved in these relationships.

Sure. Maybe you need the old white guy there. Okay. That's cool. I mean, there's some value from that person clearly, but what about some younger folks? Like, I mean, he talks about , let's not discriminate based upon age, about being too young. The next generations are gonna like to have a younger advisor involved.

And then when they see that they're part of a diverse team and that's how you capture the attention. And you connect with these folks, cuz as you said, maybe you're in that meeting and maybe it's the time for Adam to step back because he can't connect with this individual for this topic.

But the other advisor in the room. You know what I mean? I think that's really cool. And if I'm a client, like, wow, like this feels good, mom and dad are happy, but there's another advisor here that understands me as the next generation too. Wow. Like what a great relationship.

This is. That

[00:21:12] H. Adam Holt: just makes good business. I mean, isn't that what he's actually saying? Because in the sense of it, the success of getting to that level of AUM and also being able to work downstream into multiple family members, running family meetings, if you heard that, making sure there's a male and female in every.

Financial planning interaction to meet the needs, whether it's present or obvious, or it's just subliminal. I think as business owners, we tend to spend a lot of entrepreneurial mindset on how can I maximize the value of this organization? How can I drive more revenue growth? How can I lower costs? But the truth is that the lifetime value of a customer, how long they spend with us really dictates how much revenue I generate from a single household.

The longer they stay with me. The more value. That is the more that accrues to my equity value of my company, which by the way, I dunno if you heard it, he also participates that with his people, he gives them equity incentive to grow the bottom line. If we're arguing that the humanity relationship the human value of advice is really why we stay with an advisor.

Not necessarily performance, not fees, not process, not our cool tech gadgets that it's a human. It would seem like a good investment. In order to work on the highest retention component of that, which is the relationship. It totally. So if I'm gonna bring in the next generation, I will tell you what we did.

Cuz when you started this program, you asked me a question and I had to think about it. We have in our firm, a representative of every decade. On our firm, we have a 70 year old, 60 year old, 50, 40, 30, and 20 year old. Do you follow the 70 year old range practice? We have two in the 70 you?

And so I'm not 70, I'm in the 50 range now. I'm the like late forties. I know. I don't look like it, but thank you very much for that compliment. You've got like, how many decades do you guys have? We have

five.

[00:23:07] Derek N. H. Notman: That's amazing. Right? So what, so you're doing it,

[00:23:09] H. Adam Holt: right? Like what are amazing, we're doing that?

Where we're failing though, is we don't have females on the advisory. We have got it. Our firm certainly has 50, 50 male, female, but on the advisors, that's where we have really dropped the ball. And it's because we've had the hardest time finding females in our circles that, you know, I don't know, value proposition where wanna work with our firm.

That's where we're not needing our clients'. After listening to this. Yeah. It's really interesting. We're assuming that we're empathetic enough as advisors to meet the needs of our female customers, but we don't have anyone on our team that has a similar experience.

It's all anecdote.

[00:23:48] Derek N. H. Notman: Yeah. Right. Well, it looks like, you know what, your's on your game plan for. Oh, I know. Yeah. Now that's really interesting. I, it's an interesting challenge that you have too. And I mean, we're not saying here, tomorrow you have to wake up and your whole firm has to look different.

I mean, come on these things take time. You have to find the right people, regardless, male or female, you gotta find the right teammates, especially as your, I mean, 21 people on this team. I'm sure that's taken years to get to, to get this beautiful dynamic of people that really gel together. And that's extremely important.

If you're gonna run a profitable, sustainable business.

[00:24:24] H. Adam Holt: Very true. Very true. Well, let's let's do our wrap ups. Thank you Jr. For those insights that obviously made us think, and hopefully if you're listening to this, it made you think as well. Definitely check out what Jr's doing, follow him and of course I think you can even reach out to him and get some best practices from that.

Let's go to our question from the week, what was our question, Derek?

[00:24:45] Derek N. H. Notman: This is from Jenny S. Over in was it Detroit rock city? Is that, was that what it is?

[00:24:51] H. Adam Holt: Rock city, the motor city.

[00:24:53] Derek N. H. Notman: No, I know it's the motor city, but there was like a, the TV jingle or something that had that at some

[00:24:58] H. Adam Holt: point.

What is it? How's it go? Just singing for

[00:25:00] Derek N. H. Notman: us? No, I don't sing. I sing in the, I only sing in the shower and I'm not in the shower right now. yeah. I keep telling my family I'm gonna go on. America's got talent. Either for singing or dad jokes. And they both look at me like, I'm crazy for

[00:25:14] H. Adam Holt: both ideas. they said you should go, but don't come back, right?

Yeah. Like

[00:25:17] Derek N. H. Notman: you, you can go and watch in the audience. You cannot

[00:25:20] H. Adam Holt: participate. I think that would be actually fun. My family loves a G T and it's the family friendly. We cry, we laugh. We a hundred percent, a hundred. It's one of those great shows I have to admit. And I'm, we're not endorsing AGT, except I love it.

So I'm, , I'm a, I guess I'm a goofball. We should get to be a sponsor. Anyways. That's right. What does Jenny

[00:25:39] Derek N. H. Notman: say? So, Jenny, it's an interesting question. So Derek and Adam, many of my clients are finally getting beyond the accumulation phase and starting distributions. Would you do an episode on the needs of clients that are often dealing with the newness of retirement and their mindset shift coming from this new phase of life?

Wow, it's a really cool question. It's an interesting I bet you a to of us have experienced this as advisors on some level, like, Hey, . I've been re you know, saving for 30 years, I'm done in a month. What do I do? Yeah. Financially Medicare, social security. Every day is a Sunday,

it's an interesting question. I. I mean, I think like you and I both probably could comment somewhat on this, but I'd rather bring in someone that knows what they're talking about.

[00:26:26] H. Adam Holt: well, based upon what Jr said, we should bring in somebody who's over 65. That's how qualified are you and I to talk about this?

Yeah. We know it from the books. The books say that you're gonna, you know, have purpose and have I think we know enough to be dangerous. Right. We should talk about distribution rates. And, but the reality is that retirement is much different than the textbooks read. Right? And so we're obviously not retired.

We've helped a lot of people do it, but I think it's important for us to rethink this one. So I, we have a couple guests that are gonna join us actually for our next episode. So make sure you check that out. This has been really fun. Any closing thoughts?

[00:27:02] Derek N. H. Notman: Man, I just I'm loving, rocking this with you.

We're just continuing on this fun journey and I hope all the it folks listening to us are having a good time and remember , subscribe, listen, recommend, send us a note. , what do you want to hear about , this is for you folks. And we're willing to ask the tough questions that maybe others are not willing to ask.

So,

[00:27:21] H. Adam Holt: we think so. At least we think so. I don't. Oh yeah. And you write us a review too. Don't forget that one. We have to write. That would be cool. We have to write reviews. Would

[00:27:28] Derek N. H. Notman: you think that'd be great? So just like contact us, like we're here. We're trying to grow. We are growing dude.

Like we're at we're doing pretty well, like on listens now. I don't know. Like we're really supposedly we're really starting to take off. This has been a lot of fun, so I don't know. I'm rambling, but it's fun. I enjoy it. And I hope people always, you know, enjoy it and learn something along the way.

That's

[00:27:47] H. Adam Holt: cool. Well, I love giving back and this has been really fun because we crossed 25 episodes. That was, that's a milestone for most people in podcasting, and we're still here doing it. And I think we're excited to keep doing more so, as Derek said, thank you so much for all of you that are following us.

And of course we definitely wanna multiply the message just because we hope that we can add value and mentor everybody as best we can. Hopefully something here has caused you to rethink. And with that, Derek, I will look forward to seeing you on our. Episode,

[00:28:12] Derek N. H. Notman: likewise, brother, we'll see you later.

[00:28:14] H. Adam Holt: Oh, I forgot to record dude.

[00:28:15] Derek N. H. Notman: Don't even start joking about.

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